Creating Inclusive Workplaces: Advocating for Yourself and Others with Ellen Schwartze

[00:00:00] Being Authentic in the Workplace: A Conversation with Ellen

[00:00:00] Jess Bahr: Is that a Star Wars tattoo?

[00:00:02] Jess Bahr: And I'm like, Actually, it's an ewalk rendering of my French bulldog.

[00:00:07] Jess Bahr: Okay, let's get on the same page with this.

[00:00:15] Jess Bahr: Welcome to Marketers Talking Marketing, the podcast where marketers come together to talk marketing.

[00:00:21] Jess Bahr: Today we have a guest, Ellen, and before I turn over her to introduce herself, I want to just give a little disclaimer.

[00:00:29] Jess Bahr: If you have ever felt like you can't be your true self at work, this is the episode for you.

[00:00:36] Jess Bahr: Hit download so it doesn't cut out like this is for you.

[00:00:41] Jess Bahr: We are here to talk to you today, Ellen.

[00:00:44] Jess Bahr: Tell listeners at home a little bit about yourself.

[00:00:48] Ellen Schwartze: Well, hi.

[00:00:49] Ellen Schwartze: It's awesome to be here, and thanks for chatting with me.

[00:00:51] Ellen Schwartze: I am a sort of accidental career marketer, fell into SaaS marketing when I moved to London back in 2015 and needed any job before that.

[00:01:02] Ellen Schwartze: I'd been in nonprofits, and so this has been kind of a wild ride since then.

[00:01:07] Ellen Schwartze: Turns out I love some demand and work, love me a good webinar, love me a good podcast and everything that might do to help you market your space.

[00:01:14] Ellen Schwartze: So it's exciting to be here, and I am passionate about being authentic because I don't know if you're using the video clips for this or not, but okay.

[00:01:26] Ellen Schwartze: My hair is often even more pink than this.

[00:01:30] Ellen Schwartze: It's a nice pastel right now, but it's frequently very vibrantly pink.

[00:01:33] Ellen Schwartze: I think that I'm hilarious even though my sense of humor doesn't always match up what might be in the main sense of whatever's going on right now.

[00:01:44] Ellen Schwartze: So I really started leaning into what felt good for me, and I've realized that that's really served me and my career.

[00:01:52] Ellen Schwartze: Even though it doesn't feel like it fits the mold of that quote unquote, professional, I love it.

[00:01:58] Jess Bahr: I relate to that so heavily.

[00:02:00] Jess Bahr: I spent a lot of time trying to fit into what was considered an executive in corporate America.

[00:02:06] Jess Bahr: And really, I think even in the startup space, there's a vibe that your executive leadership team has with it.

[00:02:13] Jess Bahr: I spent most of my career in venture back startups, but there's definitely a vibe to it, and I think it was probably 2021 ish.

[00:02:23] Jess Bahr: I just hit a point where I was like, I am so sick of not being myself.

[00:02:28] Jess Bahr: I would wear a certain attire to fit in more professionally.

[00:02:33] Jess Bahr: I always wanted to just get blasted with tattoos, and I didn't.

[00:02:38] Jess Bahr: I wasn't, and I did actually.

[00:02:39] Jess Bahr: I've had quite a few tattoos for a long time.

[00:02:42] Jess Bahr: I got my first one, I was 14.

[00:02:43] Jess Bahr: That's a different story.

[00:02:44] Jess Bahr: But I would always put them in spots where they weren't visible.

[00:02:47] Jess Bahr: I'd always wear that would hide them.

[00:02:49] Jess Bahr: I behaved in a certain way.

[00:02:51] Jess Bahr: I talked in a certain way because I wanted to fit in and be seen as professional.

[00:02:54] Jess Bahr: And then I didn't get the promotion that I was going for, and I just said, fuck it.

[00:02:59] Jess Bahr: And I went back to shave sides, which I have, which people often can't tell because my hair is pretty thick anyways.

[00:03:05] Jess Bahr: But went back to shave sides.

[00:03:07] Jess Bahr: Got a bunch.

[00:03:07] Jess Bahr: I'll put in some pictures of my Star Wars tattoo collection, but I was like, I'm so sick of this.

[00:03:14] Jess Bahr: And it felt so liberating to just I went to my first work conference in what I felt was just like me.

[00:03:23] Jess Bahr: Tattoos, visible being.

[00:03:25] Jess Bahr: Someone said I was, like, the coolest person they've seen.

[00:03:28] Jess Bahr: I think that's really weird.

[00:03:29] Jess Bahr: I'm just being myself.

[00:03:33] Ellen Schwartze: That's the beauty of it.

[00:03:34] Ellen Schwartze: And did you just suddenly feel like you unlocked a different level?

[00:03:39] Jess Bahr: Yes, it's being in vibe.

[00:03:41] Jess Bahr: And I was so worried people would judge me.

[00:03:43] Jess Bahr: And it was all positive judgments.

[00:03:46] Jess Bahr: No one was like, oh, my God, is that a Star Wars tattoo?

[00:03:50] Jess Bahr: And I'm like, actually, it's an ewalk rendering of my French bulldog.

[00:03:55] Jess Bahr: Okay, let's get on the same page with this.

[00:03:59] Ellen Schwartze: Incredible.

[00:04:00] Jess Bahr: Yeah.

[00:04:00] Jess Bahr: I spent so long trying to fit into this mold of someone else, and yeah, it was so liberating to just be me.

[00:04:11] Ellen Schwartze: Yeah, it's exhausting, too, because what I realize is it takes up so much of your brain space that really should be dedicated to doing what you love and doing it well.

[00:04:22] Ellen Schwartze: So I don't wear a ton of makeup either.

[00:04:24] Ellen Schwartze: So it's just one of the things that I realized if I'm going to be worrying about this, that's taking up space in my brain for something that I'd rather be improving or doing well, or, like, taking the time to think about my next project.

[00:04:36] Ellen Schwartze: And how does that all fit together, instead of just worry, worry.

[00:04:40] Ellen Schwartze: Worrying that I'm not going to do my makeup right for the next thing.

[00:04:43] Jess Bahr: Because someone is going to have to worry about that.

[00:04:46] Ellen Schwartze: And men don't have to worry about that.

[00:04:50] Jess Bahr: They can wear the same freaking pair of pants all week long.

[00:04:54] Jess Bahr: Yeah.

[00:04:55] Ellen Schwartze: Have you seen where the dudes will wear the same shirt for day after day after day to see how long it takes someone to notice it's?

[00:05:02] Ellen Schwartze: Like, move.

[00:05:04] Ellen Schwartze: Yeah, I'll see if I can find there was, like, some newscaster on, like, a local news channel who was like because his co host his co anchor was getting all kinds of flak about.

[00:05:15] Ellen Schwartze: She wore the wrong color, she wore the wrong fit, she wore whatever.

[00:05:18] Ellen Schwartze: And so he was like, let's just run this experiment.

[00:05:21] Ellen Schwartze: And he wore the same exact thing for, I want to say weeks, if not months.

[00:05:26] Jess Bahr: It was ridiculous interesting because I actually wore the same outfit every day for about probably like eight or nine months.

[00:05:34] Jess Bahr: It was like 2014.

[00:05:36] Jess Bahr: Okay.

[00:05:36] Jess Bahr: And the story come out that Zuckerberg wears the same outfit, so I have to think about it.

[00:05:42] Jess Bahr: I was like, that is a great idea.

[00:05:44] Jess Bahr: And so at the time, I ran, like, a really weird life schedule.

[00:05:47] Jess Bahr: So I'd work because I was sporting international team, so I'd work like 06:00 A.m.

[00:05:52] Jess Bahr: To 09:00 a.m., go to the gym from like ten to one, and then work like two to six, go eat dinner, and then work like eight to ten.

[00:06:00] Jess Bahr: And so I also did laundry at the gym.

[00:06:03] Jess Bahr: They offered laundry service.

[00:06:04] Jess Bahr: I was in New York City at the time.

[00:06:05] Jess Bahr: It's bougie.

[00:06:07] Jess Bahr: And so I had the same outfit, and so I literally just wear the same thing.

[00:06:11] Jess Bahr: And it was like leggings and the same type of shirt.

[00:06:15] Jess Bahr: I had actually a variation, too, that was like jeans and a proper shirt that I would wear for business meetings.

[00:06:20] Jess Bahr: And I had them in my little drawer at the office.

[00:06:23] Jess Bahr: So if I had to switch into business clothes, they were there, but it was the same thing.

[00:06:27] Jess Bahr: I would get up, I would put them on, I would go to work, I would go to the gym, and I would work out in them.

[00:06:34] Jess Bahr: And then afterwards, I would put them in the laundry, and then I would get my fresh ones, and I would wear those that evening and then go to bed and then put them on when I got up.

[00:06:42] Jess Bahr: So I was like, recycling and I didn't have to think about it.

[00:06:45] Jess Bahr: Exactly.

[00:06:45] Jess Bahr: I look the same in every picture.

[00:06:47] Jess Bahr: I didn't have to do anything.

[00:06:48] Jess Bahr: Annuity it was so nice not to have to think about.

[00:06:51] Embracing and Celebrating Your Authentic Self in the Workplace

[00:06:51] Jess Bahr: And I think as women and now we're getting into, like, a very related topic, but as women, we are judged so much more with what we're wearing, if it fits well, if it's put together.

[00:07:02] Jess Bahr: I also rarely wear makeup.

[00:07:05] Jess Bahr: And when I first started not wearing makeup, when I would wear it all the time, people like, Are you okay?

[00:07:10] Jess Bahr: You look sick.

[00:07:11] Jess Bahr: This is the natural pigmentation of my skin.

[00:07:14] Ellen Schwartze: Yeah, right.

[00:07:17] Ellen Schwartze: No kidding.

[00:07:18] Ellen Schwartze: Thank you so much for noticing.

[00:07:22] Jess Bahr: Right.

[00:07:22] Ellen Schwartze: My cheeks flare up really red after kind of like hosting something for hours.

[00:07:27] Ellen Schwartze: So once the adrenaline kind of wears off, my cheeks will flare up really red.

[00:07:30] Ellen Schwartze: I would try so hard to wear enough foundation to make that not happen on camera, and I realized it was exasperating the issue.

[00:07:39] Ellen Schwartze: So it's kind of like to learn that it's going to happen, because, of course, at first it was like I would feel myself flush, which would then make me flush more because I'm now panicking about my red cheeks.

[00:07:53] Jess Bahr: And then it all gets worse if you snowball.

[00:07:55] Ellen Schwartze: Yeah.

[00:07:56] Ellen Schwartze: And then I would try to cake it on, and then I'm just hot and uncomfortable.

[00:08:00] Ellen Schwartze: And so it's like I finally was just like, this isn't fun for me.

[00:08:04] Ellen Schwartze: This isn't helping.

[00:08:05] Ellen Schwartze: I just need to lean in and know that I'm going to have red cheeks.

[00:08:08] Ellen Schwartze: And then it was like, oh, this is just my face.

[00:08:12] Ellen Schwartze: Why am I fighting so hard against my face?

[00:08:15] Jess Bahr: Yeah, we're not saying don't wear makeup if it makes you feel better.

[00:08:19] Jess Bahr: If you like it, do it for you.

[00:08:21] Ellen Schwartze: I'm wearing mascara and stuff, but it's like I put on exactly what I want to put on my face and on my body.

[00:08:29] Ellen Schwartze: And I go on about my day and I just don't think about it anymore.

[00:08:31] Jess Bahr: I had a wedding the other weekend in New York City.

[00:08:34] Jess Bahr: One of my old employees got married.

[00:08:36] Jess Bahr: Future Podcast guest, I'm sure.

[00:08:39] Jess Bahr: And I got my lashes done, I got nails on.

[00:08:41] Jess Bahr: And I felt so good because I was going to the wedding, I was dressing fancy and I did that because I felt good with it.

[00:08:48] Jess Bahr: And then as soon as I got home, I was like, these are I was actually rubbing my eye and I caught a lash and pulled one out and I was like, never doing it again.

[00:08:55] Jess Bahr: Never doing it done.

[00:08:57] Jess Bahr: Never with it.

[00:09:01] Jess Bahr: Do you find that you end up because I'm saying this because I've ran into it and I know I'm not unique or special.

[00:09:10] Jess Bahr: Do you find in the workforce that have you seen other people where you can see that they're struggling with wanting to just show up as themselves, but you can tell that they're kind of fighting with it?

[00:09:20] Ellen Schwartze: Yeah, I have.

[00:09:21] Ellen Schwartze: And I try as best I can to say not to be overt and say you look like you're struggling, but to just kind of drop in a conversation about how I kind of worked my way through this too.

[00:09:32] Ellen Schwartze: Because it's not like it happened overnight.

[00:09:33] Ellen Schwartze: It was a process.

[00:09:34] Ellen Schwartze: But one of my proudest moments from my previous job was actually I was hosting these sessions, these just like, kind of closed door ish small sessions, and someone came on who was going through that, and they were able to just say you with your crazy pink hair, not like, being this professional and hosting these things and your company is entrusting you with this particular program because or even though you've got this pink hair and you're like, I'm not trying to use my NPR voice and post this with such like I'm being myself while I'm on these calls.

[00:10:11] Ellen Schwartze: And the person was like, this is great for me to see because they were finding their way and they were feeling like it's a lot more like that than it is for the calm professional.

[00:10:21] Ellen Schwartze: And I'll say too, though, it's like, this should go either way to where if you are a calm person I'm a big personality and I fully admit that.

[00:10:28] Ellen Schwartze: And that's how I like to be bubbly and I like to being all over the place.

[00:10:34] Ellen Schwartze: If the opposite is true for you, lean into that.

[00:10:37] Ellen Schwartze: One of my best coworkers was my opposite to where she is an introvert.

[00:10:44] Ellen Schwartze: She wanted to be calm.

[00:10:45] Ellen Schwartze: She's just like we would tease her because you could never read her face and it's like, Are you mad at us?

[00:10:52] Ellen Schwartze: Do you like what we just said?

[00:10:53] Ellen Schwartze: And she's like, I'm just thinking about it.

[00:10:55] Ellen Schwartze: But that meant that we learned who she is.

[00:10:58] Ellen Schwartze: She didn't have to be performative in her day.

[00:11:01] Ellen Schwartze: She's a lot happier.

[00:11:03] Ellen Schwartze: She's not exhausted by the end.

[00:11:05] Ellen Schwartze: If she's been on meetings after meetings.

[00:11:06] Ellen Schwartze: Well, she is, but we all are.

[00:11:08] Ellen Schwartze: But you know what I'm saying.

[00:11:09] Ellen Schwartze: So it's just like I said, I think I said earlier, it is exhausting to try to be someone you are not and you are at your job a lot.

[00:11:17] Jess Bahr: I think one of the greatest gifts that we can give others is letting them be their true selves and just accepting them and loving them for that.

[00:11:26] Jess Bahr: I saw a Facebook video, Real.

[00:11:30] Jess Bahr: It was probably originally from TikTok shared on Instagram, and then Instagram forces you to share on other platforms.

[00:11:36] Jess Bahr: But it was a celebrity.

[00:11:38] Jess Bahr: And they're saying that the greatest compliment I get is people say that they feel like they can be themselves, uncomfortable around me, and that they love being around me, but really they love being themselves, and they can be themselves with me.

[00:11:50] Jess Bahr: And I was like, that is so moving.

[00:11:53] Ellen Schwartze: It is.

[00:11:54] Empowerment and Representation in the Workplace

[00:11:54] Ellen Schwartze: And this is going to sound really cliche, but I do think that's something that's going to save the world.

[00:12:01] Ellen Schwartze: The more that we can let people just be whoever they are and not feel like they need to hide or change or be ashamed or any of these things, the better we will all be.

[00:12:15] Ellen Schwartze: And that's just I think I see a lot of progress, but I've also started doing a lot of work to recognize my echo chambers.

[00:12:22] Ellen Schwartze: And so I do know that it's not the way that my immediate circles progress, that there's still tons of work to be done here.

[00:12:31] Ellen Schwartze: But I think about that even just as a parent, like of a toddler who is learning how to express himself.

[00:12:37] Ellen Schwartze: It's like my generation, I love my my parents are great, everything's great, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:12:42] Ellen Schwartze: A lot of people in her generation is like, we're not blessed with that.

[00:12:47] Ellen Schwartze: Growing up, like, you felt like you had to do certain things for your parents or to please or to whatever, which affects you all the way down.

[00:12:55] Ellen Schwartze: A girlfriend and I were talking about this.

[00:12:56] Ellen Schwartze: It's like we had great childhoods and we're still going to therapy.

[00:13:00] Ellen Schwartze: So think of it if you didn't have a great there's just a lot of ripple effects.

[00:13:05] Ellen Schwartze: If we can all just be ourselves.

[00:13:06] Jess Bahr: Basically what I think it really starts with too, is creating that representation for others.

[00:13:13] Jess Bahr: And so, like you were saying, someone was on your podcast and saw you being yourself and said, oh my God, maybe I could do that.

[00:13:21] Jess Bahr: Look at that person being the way that maybe I see myself that way.

[00:13:26] Jess Bahr: And I've never seen someone like me.

[00:13:28] Jess Bahr: I had an Instagram for a long time.

[00:13:29] Jess Bahr: I had a little YouTube and it was fat girl lifts because I'm a thick girl in the gym, and people would regularly message me and say, I've never seen someone with my body type lifting weights.

[00:13:39] Jess Bahr: I've only ever seen them on cardio equipment.

[00:13:42] Jess Bahr: And so because I've seen you lifting, I decided to go try it.

[00:13:45] Jess Bahr: And it was so much fun.

[00:13:46] Jess Bahr: And I found myself through weightlifting and Olympic lifting and strongwomans, and such a large part of me real, like, just being at peace with myself came from those outlets.

[00:13:59] Jess Bahr: So I was like, that's so awesome.

[00:14:00] Jess Bahr: And I didn't until recently, think about how that also translates the work world.

[00:14:06] Jess Bahr: It's same thing with getting women in more leadership positions.

[00:14:09] Jess Bahr: If the only women on your executive team are in HR and marketing, maybe that's going to be difficult if you're a female engineer.

[00:14:18] Jess Bahr: I worked at a tech company.

[00:14:19] Jess Bahr: Well, I've worked at many tech companies.

[00:14:21] Jess Bahr: One of them there was a female engineer, nicest person, and she was really good friends.

[00:14:28] Jess Bahr: I was running marketing.

[00:14:29] Jess Bahr: She was really good friends with some of the marketers there.

[00:14:31] Jess Bahr: And the CTO thought that she was on the marketing team.

[00:14:34] Jess Bahr: And so one of the engineering memes was like, oh, hey, what are you doing here?

[00:14:38] Jess Bahr: And she was the only female engineer on staff.

[00:14:40] Ellen Schwartze: And that wears on you.

[00:14:42] Jess Bahr: She almost quit.

[00:14:43] Jess Bahr: She was devastated.

[00:14:45] Ellen Schwartze: No kidding.

[00:14:46] Jess Bahr: Devastated because the CTO doesn't know who you are, and it's not that big a company.

[00:14:50] Jess Bahr: And he thinks you're in marketing.

[00:14:55] Ellen Schwartze: Yeah.

[00:14:56] Ellen Schwartze: So obviously isn't paying attention, but also value and respect and all these things.

[00:15:01] Ellen Schwartze: And that's such a I am not an engineer.

[00:15:04] Ellen Schwartze: I do obviously am in marketing, but I've had at least two friends who are in that kind of engineer tech space who get out of it because it's too much to ask of people to be the person who's breaking the mold.

[00:15:18] Ellen Schwartze: That's not for everybody.

[00:15:20] Jess Bahr: Agree.

[00:15:21] Ellen Schwartze: If you are the person who can do that, feel empowered to be loud about it.

[00:15:26] Ellen Schwartze: And I think it's tricky to not want to feel like you are the spokesperson for all female engineers or for all whatever bucket you're putting yourself in.

[00:15:37] Jess Bahr: When you're the only of any category, you almost by default become.

[00:15:41] Jess Bahr: And really, I think the work needs to be done by people who are already in leadership and in those positions to say to advocate for their employees.

[00:15:49] Ellen Schwartze: Sure.

[00:15:49] Jess Bahr: I had an employee who would speak.

[00:15:53] Jess Bahr: She would say words certain ways.

[00:15:56] Jess Bahr: She was a first generation student.

[00:15:58] Jess Bahr: She was first generation, not student like we're at college.

[00:16:01] Jess Bahr: She was first generation in the US.

[00:16:03] Jess Bahr: She would say things a certain way.

[00:16:04] Jess Bahr: She had a certain background.

[00:16:06] Jess Bahr: And so we were like, oh, you really need to speak with them on how they articulate.

[00:16:10] Jess Bahr: I'm like, no, because there's nothing wrong.

[00:16:15] Jess Bahr: You understand the message of what they're saying.

[00:16:17] Jess Bahr: You can have a conversation.

[00:16:18] Jess Bahr: They're doing great work.

[00:16:19] Jess Bahr: They don't need to change the way in which they're speaking to make you feel more comfortable and happy.

[00:16:24] Jess Bahr: And so I think it's people standing up and saying, hey, no, I'm not going to ask them to cover their tattoos.

[00:16:30] Jess Bahr: I'm not going to tell them that they would get further if they had a natural colored hair when half of the people that are blonde aren't really blonde.

[00:16:40] Ellen Schwartze: What a great point.

[00:16:43] Jess Bahr: I'm not going to tell them that they need to change.

[00:16:45] Jess Bahr: I'm going to maybe tell them like, hey, you're going to run into a bias around this and here's what it is.

[00:16:49] Jess Bahr: And if people think it, then it's not the right place for you.

[00:16:52] Jess Bahr: If your job is going to let you go because you don't look like corporate enough, it's not the job for you.

[00:16:58] Ellen Schwartze: Yeah.

[00:16:59] Ellen Schwartze: That actually has guided me mentally.

[00:17:02] Ellen Schwartze: I've luckily not run into it, but it's a bit of that.

[00:17:06] Ellen Schwartze: So I'm at a moment in my life where I'm going to start looking for my next thing.

[00:17:09] Ellen Schwartze: And it's so easy for your brain to slip into, well, what if they don't like, blah about me?

[00:17:18] Ellen Schwartze: And that just kind of has to be the answer.

[00:17:20] Ellen Schwartze: I'm really, really fortunate and really privileged to be in a spot where I can say I don't mind that that's not the right spot for me.

[00:17:26] Ellen Schwartze: But I've just been fortunate enough to see that if that is something that the company is going to push back on, or if they don't have a woman forward, like maternity leave sorry, family leave.

[00:17:38] Ellen Schwartze: Actually, watching me catch myself, it's not a fit.

[00:17:44] Ellen Schwartze: It's not going to work.

[00:17:45] Ellen Schwartze: You're going to be pushing against that all the time.

[00:17:48] Ellen Schwartze: And that's I think too.

[00:17:50] Ellen Schwartze: We see a lot of Gen Z, specifically, we'll see a lot of news about Gen Z sticking to their guns a lot better than people before.

[00:17:58] Jess Bahr: They are fearless.

[00:18:01] Jess Bahr: They're a little terrifying sometimes, but they're fearless with it.

[00:18:04] Jess Bahr: And I think the expectation from an employer today is totally different than it was when you and I were in our youth.

[00:18:15] Ellen Schwartze: Oh yeah.

[00:18:16] The Importance of Loyalty in the Workplace

[00:18:16] Ellen Schwartze: How many total skirts did you own?

[00:18:18] Jess Bahr: Oh my God.

[00:18:19] Ellen Schwartze: Oh my God.

[00:18:22] Ellen Schwartze: I own zero.

[00:18:23] Ellen Schwartze: I just realized this the other day.

[00:18:24] Ellen Schwartze: I don't have a single pencil skirt anymore.

[00:18:26] Jess Bahr: I don't wear pants.

[00:18:28] Jess Bahr: Okay?

[00:18:29] Jess Bahr: I wear athleisure wear, and I got like these universal, standard, big ass, super comfy dresses that I wear with shorts underneath.

[00:18:37] Jess Bahr: I don't own jeans.

[00:18:38] Jess Bahr: I did buy actually a pink suit because I have some speaking engagements, but also that I'm going to rock a pink suit.

[00:18:44] Ellen Schwartze: Right.

[00:18:45] Jess Bahr: Where was that in the early two thousand s?

[00:18:47] Jess Bahr: And so when people are coming in and they're saying, no, I'm a human being person, I'm not living to work.

[00:18:55] Jess Bahr: I am a whole person.

[00:18:56] Jess Bahr: And I'm looking for a job that fits my lifestyle.

[00:18:59] Jess Bahr: And what I demand from it is I want X, Y, and Z.

[00:19:02] Jess Bahr: I want to come into a company with good health insurance.

[00:19:05] Jess Bahr: If you don't have 401K matching.

[00:19:07] Jess Bahr: I don't want to talk to you if you don't offer.

[00:19:09] Jess Bahr: I've seen more companies that are offering not just good maternity leave, but Paternity and maternity leave that are unified because really being a parent takes more than one person.

[00:19:21] Jess Bahr: That shit is hard.

[00:19:22] Ellen Schwartze: Oh my God.

[00:19:23] Ellen Schwartze: I lived in Europe for four years and coming back, I was so mad that we decided to not have kids until we came back here.

[00:19:30] Ellen Schwartze: But that's a different story too.

[00:19:32] Jess Bahr: I have an agency and I don't have it figured out exactly yet because there's not a model for it.

[00:19:38] Jess Bahr: But my plan as an agency owner is to do profit sharing.

[00:19:42] Jess Bahr: I don't need to add on I see a lot of agencies add on 80 90% margins on their estimates.

[00:19:48] Jess Bahr: I don't need to do that.

[00:19:49] Jess Bahr: I want to have a company where I can do the work that I love and I can build a company so that my employees can do the work that they love and working 30 hours a week as full time, not 40 hours a week, and having flexibility and unlimited PTO and all those benefits.

[00:20:06] Jess Bahr: And then at the end of the year, our goal is just to keep running so we don't need to be making a million dollars a year in profit.

[00:20:12] Jess Bahr: So doing profit sharing so everyone can live a good life.

[00:20:15] Jess Bahr: And I've told people this, they're like, that's crazy.

[00:20:18] Jess Bahr: That's not crazy.

[00:20:20] Jess Bahr: And I'm a capitalist.

[00:20:21] Jess Bahr: Okay?

[00:20:21] Jess Bahr: I do love capitalism.

[00:20:23] Jess Bahr: But I think that is how we should be approaching it.

[00:20:28] Jess Bahr: We shouldn't be sacrificing ourselves and our health and our mental health and our identities and who we are as people to fit into the mold of this company that frankly doesn't give a fuck about you.

[00:20:38] Jess Bahr: Especially with the layoffs.

[00:20:41] Jess Bahr: They don't care.

[00:20:42] Jess Bahr: No one's retiring from a company anymore.

[00:20:44] Jess Bahr: They're not, especially not in tech.

[00:20:46] Ellen Schwartze: Well, and I feel like this is what the missing piece is right now when it comes to this, just because it's very close to my heart at this exact moment.

[00:20:54] Ellen Schwartze: But I was sharing with former colleague about because he's just a little bit younger than I am when it comes to where he is in his career.

[00:21:01] Ellen Schwartze: It just hasn't gone through this as many times.

[00:21:03] Ellen Schwartze: And what I realized or the way I'm framing it is that we just happen to be coming of career age in a very selfish moment in time.

[00:21:11] Ellen Schwartze: You have to take care of your own the way that the businesses are taking care of.

[00:21:16] Ellen Schwartze: Like they are quote unquote, number one.

[00:21:18] Ellen Schwartze: So the business is going to watch out for the business and you got to watch out for you.

[00:21:21] Ellen Schwartze: But I think based on even everything you just said, it's like what we want is loyalty.

[00:21:26] Ellen Schwartze: And the companies that figure that out first, the ones that say, hey, can we figure out a way to keep you here because you're doing good work and I'm talking, like, grand scope of things.

[00:21:36] Ellen Schwartze: Right.

[00:21:37] Ellen Schwartze: The sooner we can get back to that, more it's it for tat.

[00:21:43] Ellen Schwartze: Like, what's the word?

[00:21:45] Jess Bahr: It's like you're growing together.

[00:21:46] Jess Bahr: It's it's symbiotic.

[00:21:48] Jess Bahr: Yeah.

[00:21:49] Ellen Schwartze: There you go.

[00:21:50] Jess Bahr: You're not offering your employees free lunch because you never want them to leave your office.

[00:21:55] Jess Bahr: You're helping them with lunch because they're going to be there, they're doing good work, and you're maybe giving them leftovers to take home.

[00:22:02] Jess Bahr: It's being invested in each other's success and growing together.

[00:22:06] Ellen Schwartze: Yeah.

[00:22:06] Ellen Schwartze: And I want to say I didn't hear Rand Fishkin say this.

[00:22:11] Ellen Schwartze: I saw someone on LinkedIn quote Rand Fishkin saying this, so that's perhaps the.

[00:22:14] Jess Bahr: Most michael michael Scott quoting Rain Gretzky here.

[00:22:19] Ellen Schwartze: It's definitely, like, the most cliche 2023 professional example you're going to get on this particular conversation.

[00:22:26] Ellen Schwartze: But it was just like he was just talking about how I think a lot of what happened in Tech right now, specifically, is that everybody wanted to grow super heck and fast, and they did, with money or with something or, like, with too short of a view of things, where it's like we need to post a good quarter, a good year.

[00:22:42] Ellen Schwartze: And what the idea then?

[00:22:43] Ellen Schwartze: I think the oriented, which I should.

[00:22:45] Jess Bahr: Really verify, is that we'll find it, we'll insert it so we can also see how close it is.

[00:22:50] Ellen Schwartze: Thank you, Jesus.

[00:22:54] Ellen Schwartze: Instead of trying to grow so fast, grow sustainably, grow in a way that you know you'll be there next year.

[00:22:59] Jess Bahr: No one wants you sustainable.

[00:23:00] Jess Bahr: No one wants that because it'll lower their valuation.

[00:23:04] Jess Bahr: Yeah.

[00:23:04] Ellen Schwartze: Like we were saying, all you want is to live your life and do something you enjoy and get enough money that you don't feel like you're on the edge.

[00:23:14] Ellen Schwartze: Right?

[00:23:14] Ellen Schwartze: And that's, I think, underrated.

[00:23:17] The Importance of Authenticity in the Workplace

[00:23:17] Jess Bahr: I was talking to a woman who amazing.

[00:23:23] Jess Bahr: She's retired and now advises, like, early stage companies, and she's fantastic, but I was talking to her, and she's like, you know what?

[00:23:30] Jess Bahr: No one ever tells kids these days.

[00:23:33] Jess Bahr: And kids these days is also, I think, my favorite phrase now, because I'm just really embracing, like, the mid 30s life.

[00:23:39] Jess Bahr: No one ever talks to you about pension funds and retirement.

[00:23:42] Jess Bahr: No one ever tells you that when you're working for ten years, 20 to 30, if you work at a company with retirement and then you go work at companies without retirement funds, you're setting yourself up for success no one talks to you about.

[00:23:54] Jess Bahr: And then you retire.

[00:23:55] Jess Bahr: And then you realize, I don't have enough to retire on because I've worked at tech companies my entire career.

[00:24:02] Jess Bahr: And I say this going from early 2010s tech to now, when you're an early stage company with founders who don't have kids, your cost of Spousal health insurance is going to be astronomic because they're buying insurance for themselves.

[00:24:16] Jess Bahr: They're saying, we're all single.

[00:24:18] Jess Bahr: We don't need Spousal, we don't need kids.

[00:24:20] Jess Bahr: When you work at companies where people are thinking about retirement.

[00:24:23] Jess Bahr: They're offering pensions, they're offering retirement funds.

[00:24:26] Jess Bahr: Not a lot of them do.

[00:24:27] Jess Bahr: And you get to this point where you're like, oh, my God, I've been looking short term for so long, and now my short term is really hard.

[00:24:35] Jess Bahr: Like, shit, I wish I would have gone to work for a company that actually had a retirement fund that I could invested into.

[00:24:41] Jess Bahr: Yeah, and no one's talking about that.

[00:24:43] Jess Bahr: They want, like, go work at a fang company and then start your own company that you're going to get acquired, and everyone's going for acquisition.

[00:24:50] Jess Bahr: Right.

[00:24:51] Jess Bahr: You're also not building stuff to last.

[00:24:55] Jess Bahr: What I think is really interesting is a lot of these tech companies, they promote authenticity, right?

[00:25:02] Jess Bahr: And they want you to show up as your true self, but they want something really specific, and if you don't fit into that, then you're not going to fit in.

[00:25:09] Jess Bahr: And so when you are your true self, you're almost penalized for it.

[00:25:13] Jess Bahr: And what if you don't want to be yourself?

[00:25:15] Jess Bahr: I've had coworkers that I didn't know shit about.

[00:25:18] Jess Bahr: No one knew where they lived.

[00:25:20] Jess Bahr: No one knew what they did.

[00:25:22] Jess Bahr: They didn't want to share any of it.

[00:25:24] Jess Bahr: They're like, I'm here to work.

[00:25:26] Jess Bahr: I'm happy to be cordial and be friendly, but I don't want to make friends.

[00:25:29] Jess Bahr: I just want to work.

[00:25:30] Jess Bahr: I don't want you to know about my life.

[00:25:32] Jess Bahr: They need a spot to yeah.

[00:25:34] Ellen Schwartze: And I think that's what we're saying overall is that there just shouldn't be that much of an expectation put on you to do anything you don't want to do.

[00:25:43] Ellen Schwartze: And kind of inversely, you should feel free to act whatever feels most comfortable in whatever way that needs to be before it starts to affect your like, if it starts to affect your work, that's different.

[00:25:55] Ellen Schwartze: Let's have a conversation.

[00:25:56] Ellen Schwartze: But I don't think it's ruling anything out, and I think there's a lot of room for people to just relax the reins on what is and isn't okay.

[00:26:05] Jess Bahr: Yeah.

[00:26:06] Jess Bahr: I will say, if your true self means that you microwave fish for lunch, don't bring your true self.

[00:26:12] Ellen Schwartze: Find remote work.

[00:26:13] Jess Bahr: You need to suppress that.

[00:26:15] Jess Bahr: You need to hide that feature for.

[00:26:17] Jess Bahr: I just remember the guy who we were pretty sure that he had another job that he didn't tell us about.

[00:26:22] Jess Bahr: And he would come into work at like 02:00 p.m..

[00:26:24] Jess Bahr: And then he had to work to like eight or ten and every day at about 536 o'clock because the office was pretty empty except for a couple of us.

[00:26:32] Jess Bahr: He would microwave fish for dinner every day, and it was white every day.

[00:26:36] Jess Bahr: And we're like, Why?

[00:26:38] Jess Bahr: And he's like, My wife makes it.

[00:26:40] Jess Bahr: It's really healthy and good.

[00:26:41] Jess Bahr: And he's like, I know people don't like it, but he would do.

[00:26:44] Jess Bahr: And then he would sit in, like, the main conference room that was right.

[00:26:46] Ellen Schwartze: By the front smell.

[00:26:48] Jess Bahr: Yeah.

[00:26:48] Jess Bahr: And.

[00:26:48] Jess Bahr: You come the next day, it's like, Why doesn't it, like, fish in here?

[00:26:51] Jess Bahr: And everyone who came in a little early and would leave by, like, four or five, they want to know what's happening.

[00:26:56] Jess Bahr: They just thought maybe a janitor smelled like fish because it was there in the morning.

[00:27:01] Jess Bahr: Yeah, because they never saw microwave it.

[00:27:03] Jess Bahr: That's the only exception to this authenticity rule, is, like, no microwaving fish.

[00:27:07] Ellen Schwartze: No microwaving fish.

[00:27:08] Ellen Schwartze: I would completely agree.

[00:27:10] Ellen Schwartze: I am guilty of having one time monopolize the microwave for five minutes to cook a sweet potato.

[00:27:15] Ellen Schwartze: And then I decided that that is overstepping some bounds as well.

[00:27:19] Ellen Schwartze: The office microwave is for 32nd, 1 minute at a time.

[00:27:22] Jess Bahr: Got to keep it short space, but.

[00:27:25] Ellen Schwartze: Not time on the microwave.

[00:27:26] Jess Bahr: Yeah.

[00:27:27] Jess Bahr: I think as employees, as human beings, your job is to show up and be yourself and give people the opportunity to be friends with you and love you and enjoy you.

[00:27:37] Jess Bahr: And if not, that's on them.

[00:27:40] Jess Bahr: And as managers, I think we have a massive responsibility to the kids coming in and to anyone in the workplace that we're managing or that's on different teams in general, as leaders in a company, we have a responsibility to ensure that employees have a safe space to be themselves and that we're stepping in.

[00:27:59] Jess Bahr: If an executive, like, I got feedback once, because I would always circulate feedback internally for all of my employees.

[00:28:06] Jess Bahr: And the feedback for the guys was all really tactical and very much focused on their job.

[00:28:11] Jess Bahr: And the feedback for some of the women was too flighty, like, too all over the place.

[00:28:15] Jess Bahr: I'm like, give me examples.

[00:28:17] Jess Bahr: She gets too excited.

[00:28:20] Jess Bahr: What do you mean she gets too excited?

[00:28:21] Jess Bahr: She's just too energetic.

[00:28:23] Jess Bahr: Not telling her not to be excited.

[00:28:26] Jess Bahr: I'm sorry.

[00:28:27] Ellen Schwartze: She likes her work.

[00:28:29] Jess Bahr: That's not feedback.

[00:28:31] Jess Bahr: And so I think pushing back and challenging people on, is your feedback actually actual feedback, or are you like, I absolutely hate it.

[00:28:42] Jess Bahr: I will go on a soapbox, lady.

[00:28:44] Jess Bahr: I die.

[00:28:44] The Importance of DEI in the Workplace

[00:28:44] Jess Bahr: That executive presence is a bucket term for biases you have when you say someone lacks executive presence, but you can't define what it is.

[00:28:53] Jess Bahr: You can't pinpoint what it is.

[00:28:56] Jess Bahr: It's because you don't want to say what it is.

[00:28:58] Jess Bahr: I have a really close friend who's Indian, who's been in the US for about 20 years, and he gets feedback on his executive presence and his presentation skills pretty regularly.

[00:29:10] Jess Bahr: And what it really comes down to is when he started working on his dictation and his accent and reducing his accent, he got better feedback on his presentation skills, which sucks.

[00:29:27] Ellen Schwartze: That sucks.

[00:29:28] Ellen Schwartze: And it also shows how fragile a lot of those egos are, I would say, you know, after someone says 16 words, whether or not they know their shit.

[00:29:42] Ellen Schwartze: And as an executive especially, you will respect an executive who gets in there and starts talking things that make sense that are not fluffy that are not, like, total just executive nonsense, frankly.

[00:29:56] Ellen Schwartze: You'll trust someone, so it's like your friend, I'm sure, is just up.

[00:30:01] Ellen Schwartze: I'm sure he was saying all the right things.

[00:30:03] Ellen Schwartze: He knows his job.

[00:30:04] Ellen Schwartze: That's why he's an executive.

[00:30:06] Ellen Schwartze: And so to, like to get so bogged down in that detail because you don't like, yeah, total bias is short sighted.

[00:30:14] Ellen Schwartze: Kind of taking that circle.

[00:30:15] Jess Bahr: Sorry, he speaks two languages and you speak one.

[00:30:20] Jess Bahr: Can we start seeing accents as a sign of intelligence, please, instead of the opposite way?

[00:30:26] Ellen Schwartze: That would be incredible.

[00:30:29] Jess Bahr: It's poopy but it's super poopy.

[00:30:33] Jess Bahr: Super Poopy stamp, make, stickers, put on emoji.

[00:30:39] Jess Bahr: Listen, you're being super poopy right now, bro.

[00:30:42] Ellen Schwartze: Sometimes I think I do kind of wonder if it needs to just be that simple sometimes.

[00:30:46] Ellen Schwartze: Because I think what we see on social media, to be an ally, you have to have the perfect words and the perfect little speech put out and put together to pull them aside and say, hey, I noticed that your unchecked biases are showing, and could we talk about this?

[00:30:59] Ellen Schwartze: And what it kind of needs to be is a little bit of, like, pulled to the side and say, you got a Poopy stamp today?

[00:31:04] Jess Bahr: Yeah.

[00:31:05] Ellen Schwartze: Here's what I saw.

[00:31:07] Jess Bahr: I think it's also I don't want to say calling out a negative sense, but, like, proactively, advocating for your employees.

[00:31:13] Jess Bahr: I had an employee, I've had many employees with.

[00:31:16] Jess Bahr: What I'm going to say is, like, non stereotypical English names.

[00:31:19] Jess Bahr: And so when we would go on calls with vendors for the first time, I would introduce them and repeat their name multiple times so that the vendor knew how to pronounce it.

[00:31:28] Jess Bahr: So they weren't sitting there having to experience their name being pronounced wrong again for the 10th time, or employees who would have their name.

[00:31:40] Jess Bahr: And they would be like, but you can call me like Cat or you can call me Pat or something short.

[00:31:45] Jess Bahr: It's like, no, we're going to use your name.

[00:31:48] Jess Bahr: You don't have to do that.

[00:31:49] Jess Bahr: And so at one where I was like, no, help me learn how to pronounce your name properly, and then I will get everyone else who's like, let's talk about it.

[00:31:57] Jess Bahr: And they're like, It's the first time that anyone's actually said my name at work.

[00:32:02] Jess Bahr: Yeah, but it can mean a lot, right?

[00:32:07] Jess Bahr: You don't have to hack that.

[00:32:09] Ellen Schwartze: I've started trying to remember to do when I come across a name I haven't heard or seen before is Google.

[00:32:14] Ellen Schwartze: It how to pronounce name, because I've yet to find one that's not there.

[00:32:19] Ellen Schwartze: And it's at least a really good starting point.

[00:32:22] Ellen Schwartze: And I will try to then approach it and apologetically say, I'm going to double check that this is how you say it, please.

[00:32:28] Ellen Schwartze: This is your moment to correct me.

[00:32:29] Ellen Schwartze: But it means a lot to people.

[00:32:32] Ellen Schwartze: In one of those sessions that I was running before, there's a couple of people from India who joined, and I'm like, okay, tell me how to say it.

[00:32:39] Ellen Schwartze: And I would repeat it back correctly.

[00:32:40] Ellen Schwartze: And one guy was like, that's the first time anyone has said it, because I would remember then the next time that he showed up and he said that was the first time someone in the US remembered and pronounced it correctly without having to be corrected the second time.

[00:32:56] Jess Bahr: I'm not a dei expert by any means, but I think that's what makes a big difference is the little things, like asking someone their pronouns.

[00:33:05] Jess Bahr: Asking someone I did used to work with a lot of had a lot of coworkers in Ireland, and there's some real Irish names that very much were challenging for me.

[00:33:16] Jess Bahr: And so I got, I think, kind of accustomed to can you like, I'm from the US.

[00:33:21] Jess Bahr: I play stupid because I was stupid with how to pronounce it.

[00:33:25] Jess Bahr: But asking someone, is this the right way to pronounce your name?

[00:33:28] Jess Bahr: Is this what you like to be called?

[00:33:29] Jess Bahr: What are your preferred pronouns?

[00:33:32] Jess Bahr: I think taking an interest in what people in those things that can make people unique too.

[00:33:38] Jess Bahr: And showing that you're there to and then not making a big deal out of it that deserves like a big.

[00:33:46] Ellen Schwartze: Bell ding ding ding instead of repeating how cool you are that you got their name right every time, which I'm guilty of having.

[00:33:54] Ellen Schwartze: Like, at first I would do this to be like, I said it right again.

[00:33:58] Ellen Schwartze: It's like, oh, just as bad as saying it wrong so it becomes normal, and then all the white people around you can say, okay, that's the normal thing, and she's being cool about it, so I can be cool about it, and it's definitely a ripple effect.

[00:34:12] Ellen Schwartze: So, yeah, totally.

[00:34:14] Jess Bahr: People got I was talking to someone once, I was at a bar, I think, or some group event with a person who I'm not friends with, and they were upset about how they had to start putting pronouns in their email.

[00:34:26] Jess Bahr: And I was like, well, who cares?

[00:34:27] Jess Bahr: It takes you a second or two.

[00:34:29] Jess Bahr: It's not that big of a deal.

[00:34:30] Jess Bahr: And for someone who maybe isn't comfortable sharing those, it normalizes.

[00:34:34] Jess Bahr: Sharing it, it normalizes the conversation, it's normalizing.

[00:34:39] Jess Bahr: This thing that for them might be really uncomfortable.

[00:34:41] Jess Bahr: It makes them not alone with it.

[00:34:43] Jess Bahr: Yeah, so who cares?

[00:34:44] Jess Bahr: And as someone, I go by Jess, which typically is a female name, but there have been many times where I've met men named Jess who are like, oh, man, everyone always thinks I'm a chick.

[00:34:56] Jess Bahr: And I was like, man, think about if you had your pronouns, people just they would know how to address you and you wouldn't get called she.

[00:35:02] Jess Bahr: And so even though you're someone who may be cisgendered, it can still help you and your experience in life.

[00:35:09] Ellen Schwartze: How dare we do something very simple on an individual level to help the greater good.

[00:35:14] Ellen Schwartze: How dare you suggest these things?

[00:35:16] Jess Bahr: Shocking, right?

[00:35:18] Ellen Schwartze: I can't believe it.

[00:35:19] Jess Bahr: Want them to feel comfortable being themselves?

[00:35:23] Jess Bahr: What?

[00:35:23] Ellen Schwartze: I don't know that I can stand for this.

[00:35:25] Ellen Schwartze: Let's just have a big stink.

[00:35:28] Ellen Schwartze: Let's write up, right?

[00:35:31] Ellen Schwartze: Let's write up a whole seven paragraph long LinkedIn post about how you don't want to do it when it could have just taken you 3 seconds.

[00:35:39] Creating Inclusive Workplaces: How to Be Yourself and Allow Others to Do the Same

[00:35:39] Jess Bahr: What I think might be my favorite, maybe not favorite is the right word.

[00:35:44] Jess Bahr: Something I find myself doing regularly on Facebook is I think people often will do things that are racist or sexist or whatever and they don't always realize it too when they say it.

[00:35:57] Jess Bahr: And so what happens often is people will talk about stupid baby names and they'll be like, look at these weird spellings.

[00:36:05] Jess Bahr: And why are there commas in the middle of them?

[00:36:07] Jess Bahr: Like, actually, that is rooted in racism.

[00:36:11] Jess Bahr: Your rejection of commas in a name is rooted in racism.

[00:36:14] Jess Bahr: And then I'll you mean apostrophes.

[00:36:16] Jess Bahr: That's what I mean.

[00:36:17] Jess Bahr: Oh, my God.

[00:36:18] Jess Bahr: I said, yeah, I'm an apostrophe.

[00:36:19] Jess Bahr: Thank you so much.

[00:36:22] Ellen Schwartze: I wasn't just like, wrong part of wrong part.

[00:36:28] Ellen Schwartze: Now you're spelling it and punctuating it wrong.

[00:36:30] Jess Bahr: I know.

[00:36:31] Jess Bahr: Like grammar, right?

[00:36:33] Jess Bahr: But it's ultimately, like, a lot of the stuff we do, we might not realize our microaggressions and so calling them out and challenging people on them.

[00:36:40] Jess Bahr: When people complain about not liking American food too.

[00:36:43] Jess Bahr: Like, a lot of traditional American food.

[00:36:46] Jess Bahr: Listen, Betty Ross didn't have a cookbook.

[00:36:48] Jess Bahr: Betty Ross wasn't sweating her.

[00:36:51] Jess Bahr: Took us off making apple pie.

[00:36:53] Jess Bahr: She wasn't making mac and cheese.

[00:36:55] Jess Bahr: A lot of what we attribute to be American food is food that was created by enslaved persons who were working as chefs who were doing the best they could with what they had and made phenomenal dishes.

[00:37:06] Jess Bahr: But we don't always think about those things.

[00:37:10] Ellen Schwartze: No, there's a lot to think about.

[00:37:13] Ellen Schwartze: So we were working with a customer who said they're actually getting rid of the terminology of, like, slave and master within their nomenclatures.

[00:37:23] Ellen Schwartze: Tech stack.

[00:37:23] Jess Bahr: Yeah.

[00:37:23] Ellen Schwartze: So it's like it I can't remember what it moved over to, unfortunately.

[00:37:27] Ellen Schwartze: But it's something where it's like, hey, we understood this is not okay.

[00:37:31] Ellen Schwartze: And so our new nomenclature is this and this.

[00:37:34] Ellen Schwartze: Dependent, I think, is what it's like.

[00:37:36] Ellen Schwartze: It's this and it's this.

[00:37:37] Jess Bahr: We did that when I was at NS One.

[00:37:39] Jess Bahr: We went through and did that for everything.

[00:37:42] Jess Bahr: The API took a lot longer to update.

[00:37:44] Jess Bahr: I don't actually know if they finished updating it, but that was a massive undertaking and it was a really important project.

[00:37:50] Jess Bahr: And we almost anticipated at least some people to be like, this seems ridiculous and unnecessary because there's always someone who doesn't like any initiative to make people feel better about things.

[00:38:03] Jess Bahr: From my recollection, no one had negative feedback.

[00:38:05] Jess Bahr: They're like, oh, yeah, this makes sense.

[00:38:07] Jess Bahr: It's definitely much more clear also, to have an inclusion list and an exclusion list instead of a whitelist blacklist with it.

[00:38:14] Jess Bahr: But it's little things like that I think can make a really big difference.

[00:38:20] Ellen Schwartze: I think like what you were saying earlier, sorry to talk over you.

[00:38:24] Ellen Schwartze: It feels like a little thing when you see it on paper, but that is actually a master big.

[00:38:29] Ellen Schwartze: Feels like a little thing on paper, but that's actually a huge undertaking.

[00:38:33] Ellen Schwartze: When you think of all the code that you might have to rewrite all of the places where this shows up, it is actually really acknowledging that even though this feels like a little thing, it is a microaggression and we are taking a big step.

[00:38:47] Ellen Schwartze: It is important enough for us to redo a lot of work to get this out of here, to really dig it out.

[00:38:54] Jess Bahr: NS One, it was like a four month project and it was the technical content team, the marketing team, because a lot of this stuff is also referenced on our website.

[00:39:02] Jess Bahr: Or we might include Snippets from our help center and multiple from the engineering team.

[00:39:08] Jess Bahr: Just to go through and identify all the instances in which the words are being used and then decide upon the replacement word for it and then go through, make all the updates.

[00:39:16] Jess Bahr: It was a multi month project.

[00:39:18] Jess Bahr: It was a massive project.

[00:39:20] Ellen Schwartze: That, to me, is what I hope people who might have otherwise argued against it see it's like, yes, that is to me evidence of exactly how important it is.

[00:39:33] Ellen Schwartze: It wasn't just like a find and replace in a word document.

[00:39:36] Ellen Schwartze: It was a four month undertaking where you're paying people to do this because it is important.

[00:39:41] Jess Bahr: Yeah.

[00:39:41] Jess Bahr: And no one's talking about it externally.

[00:39:45] Jess Bahr: No one's in there like, give us a prize, right?

[00:39:48] Jess Bahr: We changed our for my agency, actually, I have an MSA, like a Master Service Agreement.

[00:39:54] Jess Bahr: And I went through and updated and I was sitting there, I was like, oh, I need to change that name.

[00:39:58] Jess Bahr: Even though no one talked to me about it.

[00:40:02] Jess Bahr: But I was like, okay, we got to change this to just like the service agreement.

[00:40:05] Jess Bahr: So moral of the story is give people poopy stickers when they're being poopy.

[00:40:14] Jess Bahr: Advocate for your friends and coworkers and such who want to be themselves, might not feel comfortable or safe.

[00:40:20] Jess Bahr: Create that space for them.

[00:40:21] Jess Bahr: And then I think number three is be the example for someone else.

[00:40:26] Jess Bahr: Be the model, show up as yourself and others will feel more comfortable hopefully showing up as their true selves.

[00:40:32] Jess Bahr: Unless you microwave fish again.

[00:40:36] Jess Bahr: Fish microwavers.

[00:40:37] Jess Bahr: Not allowed to be yourself.

[00:40:40] Ellen Schwartze: I do feel external to your internal self, though.

[00:40:44] Ellen Schwartze: I don't know that you can really claim never mind rule this.

[00:40:48] Ellen Schwartze: I was about to say you can't claim that food is part of you and that's absolutely not true.

[00:40:52] Ellen Schwartze: But I think you could microwave chicken tomorrow.

[00:40:56] Jess Bahr: Yeah, you could do chicken.

[00:41:00] Jess Bahr: Listen, I don't know a lot about fishing how to prepare it.

[00:41:02] Jess Bahr: But you just know microwave fish in the office.

[00:41:06] Ellen Schwartze: Just don't microwave fish in the office.

[00:41:07] Jess Bahr: It's that true.

[00:41:10] Jess Bahr: Takeaway no fish at all.

[00:41:14] Ellen Schwartze: You're welcome to be yourself for as many levels as possible.

[00:41:18] Ellen Schwartze: However, the line is drawn at microwaving fish.

[00:41:20] Jess Bahr: Yes, 100%.

[00:41:22] Interview with Helen Schwartze on Personal Branding

[00:41:22] Jess Bahr: Well, Helen, thank you so much for joining today.

[00:41:24] Jess Bahr: We'll put links in the show notes below to our LinkedIn, all those good stuff.

[00:41:28] Jess Bahr: If you're listening on the podcast and you want to check out the video, go over to YouTube.

[00:41:32] Jess Bahr: If you're watching on the YouTube, you already watched the video.

[00:41:34] Jess Bahr: So like and share comment below.

[00:41:37] Ellen Schwartze: Yay.

[00:41:39] Jess Bahr: See you guys for the next episode.

[00:41:41] Jess Bahr: Pew pew.

[00:41:42] Jess Bahr: Bye.