Breaking into Product Marketing in 2023: Insights and Strategies from a Seasoned Marketer with Sander Buitelaar
Episode Summary
Are you considering a career in product marketing? Are you intrigued by the opportunity to tell captivating product stories and make a meaningful impact? Look no further, as we dive into the experiences and advice of Sander Buitelaar, a seasoned marketer, who has successfully navigated the world of marketing to find his calling in product marketing.
About
Sander Buitelaar
Sander's career path is proof that there is no right or wrong trajectory in marketing; there is simply the path that you choose. Starting out in advertising, Sander's journey took him from selling AdWords at Google to working at an agency before transitioning to field marketing at Zendesk. In 2015, he made the decision to move to the Bay Area, where he worked in various marketing roles, including sales enablement and demand generation. However, Sander always knew that his ultimate destination was product marketing.Sander's journey into product marketing was not an overnight transition. It was a deliberate strategy that took him five to six years to accomplish. Recognizing his passion for product marketing, Sander began seeking roles that allowed him to work closely with product marketing teams. He took on additional responsibilities related to product marketing in his current role, building relationships with the team and gaining valuable experience along the way.
Tools & Relevant Links
Episode Takeaways
The Path Less Traveled
Sander's career path is proof that there is no right or wrong trajectory in marketing there is simply the path that you choose. Starting out in advertising, Sander's journey took him from selling AdWords at Google to working at an agency before transitioning to field marketing at Zendesk. In 2015, he made the decision to move to the Bay Area, where he worked in various marketing roles, including sales enablement and demand generation. However, Sander always knew that his ultimate destination was product marketing.
The Allure of Product Marketing
So, what drew Sander to product marketing? For him, it was the opportunity to craft compelling narratives, work closely with sales and the product team, and provide valuable recommendations. Sander wanted to be in a position where he could leverage his skills to tell the story of the product, command respect and confidence, and make a tangible impact on the company's success.
Navigating the Transition
Sander's journey into product marketing was not an overnight transition. It was a deliberate strategy that took him five to six years to accomplish. Recognizing his passion for product marketing, Sander began seeking roles that allowed him to work closely with product marketing teams. He took on additional responsibilities related to product marketing in his current role, building relationships with the team and gaining valuable experience along the way.
Unlocking Growth Opportunities
For Sander, career growth stems from learning and being challenged in your job. He advises having a goal in mind for your career path but remaining open to various routes and opportunities to reach that goal. He believes that supportive teams and managers are critical to one's development and encourages building relationships with product marketing teams and offering help whenever possible. If your manager is not supportive, he suggests considering a switch to a more supportive team or finding a new job altogether.
The Role of a Product Marketer
As a full stack product marketer, Sander’s responsibilities include strategic planning, team management, and driving growth for the company. With experience in both B2B and B2C marketing in various industries, Sander emphasizes the importance of understanding the target audience and their pain points. He believes in the power of storytelling and creating a compelling narrative that resonates with customers.
Leveraging the Marketing Stack
As a marketer, Sander utilizes a range of tools to achieve his objectives. His marketing stack includes Salesforce, Marketo, Intercom, and more. However, his favorite part of the tech stack lies in in-product messaging applications like Appqs and Chameleon. Sander finds these tools incredibly impactful in driving conversions and engagement. Nonetheless, he acknowledges the challenge of aligning marketing and product teams when it comes to in-app messaging.
A Customer-Centric Approach
In conclusion, Sander's approach to marketing centers around being customer-centric and delivering value to users. He believes in continuously learning and being open to new challenges. As he proved with his own journey, there is no one-size-fits-all path to success in marketing. So, take Sander's advice to heart, follow your passion, and embrace the opportunities that come your way.
Remember, the path to product marketing may be elusive, but with determination, dedication, and a willingness to embrace the unknown, you could find yourself thriving in this exciting and impactful field.
Additional Notes
[00:00:00] Jess Bahr: There is no right or wrong path, only the path that you choose.
[00:00:02] Jess Bahr: And I feel like that is that applies so much to growth in a marketing career.
[00:00:12] Jess Bahr: Welcome to another episode of Marketers Talking Marketing.
[00:00:15] Jess Bahr: Today we are talking about breaking into the most elusive part of marketing, product marketing.
[00:00:22] Jess Bahr: We're joined with Sander.
[00:00:23] Jess Bahr: Why don't you tell the audience little bit about yourself, and then let's chat about how you got into product marketing and what others should know if they want to make that jump.
[00:00:31] Sander Buitelaar: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:00:32] Sander Buitelaar: Thanks so much for having me on, Jess.[00:00:35] Interview with Sander Buitelaar: Journey from Field Marketing to Product Marketing
[00:00:35] Sander Buitelaar: So my name is Sander.
[00:00:37] Sander Buitelaar: I'm a product marketer.
[00:00:39] Sander Buitelaar: I have a bit over ten years of experience in marketing.
[00:00:44] Sander Buitelaar: I started out in advertising.
[00:00:46] Sander Buitelaar: My first real job was at Google selling AdWords, and then moved on to an agency.
[00:00:52] Sander Buitelaar: Did a little bit of advertising at this agency in London, moved to the Bay Area in 2015.
[00:00:57] Sander Buitelaar: And I've been in B.
[00:01:00] Sander Buitelaar: Two B SaaS companies since then.
[00:01:03] Sander Buitelaar: I started out in field marketing at Zendesk, but also have done sales enablement, demand, gen.
[00:01:10] Sander Buitelaar: I've done lots of webinars, and recently, a couple of years ago, I transitioned into product marketing.
[00:01:18] Sander Buitelaar: First unofficially, I would say, at Trey, and then officially at this company called RudderStack, which is a CDB.
[00:01:27] Jess Bahr: What made you want to well, actually, let me take a step back of that question.
[00:01:31] Jess Bahr: Was the move intentional, or did you just find yourself doing product marketing?
[00:01:36] Sander Buitelaar: Yeah, no, that move was absolutely intentional.
[00:01:40] Sander Buitelaar: I've been eyeing product marketing since I was at Zendesk, so since 2016.
[00:01:48] Sander Buitelaar: First of all, when you get into marketing, you don't really know what product marketing is.
[00:01:53] Sander Buitelaar: You don't know what field marketing is or demand generation.
[00:01:56] Sander Buitelaar: These are just terms that you hear about, but you don't really know what that means.
[00:02:00] Sander Buitelaar: Once you are actually in the marketing team and you know, okay, this is what the field marketer does, this is what the content marketer does, this is what the product marketer does, you kind of understand it like, okay, this is a cool job, but I'd like to maybe do more of this.
[00:02:18] Sander Buitelaar: So when I was at Zedusk, I would see the product marketing team.
[00:02:23] Sander Buitelaar: They're usually the ones that are telling the story about the product.
[00:02:27] Sander Buitelaar: They're the ones that are giving maybe, like, a keynote speech in front of everyone at a sales kickoff.
[00:02:34] Sander Buitelaar: Everyone kind of looked up to them, and they just commanded a lot of respect and confidence.
[00:02:41] Sander Buitelaar: And so I was like, okay, I want to be in that position.
[00:02:45] Sander Buitelaar: I want to be in that role where you're giving the presentations, you're talking to sales, you're talking to the product team.
[00:02:53] Sander Buitelaar: You maybe are able to give some suggestions or recommendations to the product team.
[00:02:59] Sander Buitelaar: And so that really, really interested me.
[00:03:03] Sander Buitelaar: And I knew from my time at Zendesk, when I was a very junior field marketing intern, basically, that I wanted to be in product marketing.
[00:03:13] Sander Buitelaar: And so I've kind of over the last five, six years since that point, I've been thinking of ways of breaking in and actually being a product marketer.
[00:03:24] Jess Bahr: That's awesome.
[00:03:25] The Career Path from Sales Enablement to Product Marketing
[00:03:25] Jess Bahr: How did you start bridging that then, at Trade?
[00:03:27] Jess Bahr: Did you talk to your boss and say, hey, this is really where I want to go?
[00:03:32] Jess Bahr: What did that look like?
[00:03:34] Jess Bahr: How did you do those first couple of steps to get into it?
[00:03:36] Sander Buitelaar: The first step?
[00:03:37] Sander Buitelaar: I mean, yes, there's a few ways of doing it.
[00:03:40] Sander Buitelaar: For me, personally, my path probably took longer than other people.
[00:03:45] Sander Buitelaar: It took me, as I said, like, five years, which is a really long time.
[00:03:49] Sander Buitelaar: But what I did was, after Zendesk, I looked at roles that had to partner with product marketing, like, not a product marketing manager.
[00:04:02] Sander Buitelaar: So I was able to get a sales enablement coordinator role at Segment, and this was a contract position.
[00:04:12] Sander Buitelaar: And I thought, okay, sales enablement is one of the skills, one of the tasks that a product marketer has to do.
[00:04:21] Sander Buitelaar: And so I was like, okay, this could be a stepping stone into product marketing.
[00:04:27] Sander Buitelaar: I was a contractor at Segment, which isn't an ideal position, at least for me.
[00:04:32] Sander Buitelaar: I wanted to be a full time marketer or a full time employee at the company.
[00:04:37] Sander Buitelaar: But I thought, okay, if I do this sales enablement, maybe after a year or so, I could transition into the full time team as a product marketer.
[00:04:46] Sander Buitelaar: That didn't quite pan out at Segment.
[00:04:48] Sander Buitelaar: But that experience as a sales enablement coordinator really has given me a good edge when applying to product marketing roles.
[00:05:00] Sander Buitelaar: And when I got the product marketing manager role at RudderStack, they were looking for someone with enablement experience.
[00:05:08] Sander Buitelaar: So I could point to that experience at Segment and also at Trey.
[00:05:13] Sander Buitelaar: Since I did kind of make that move unofficially at Trey into product marketing, I could say, hey, I've done sales enablement at Segment, which is a competitor of RudderStack, and I did sales enablement at Tray, and that was a good fit for RudderStack at the time.
[00:05:32] Jess Bahr: Yeah.
[00:05:32] Jess Bahr: I feel like you would also be a more impactful product marketer because you've been in the seat of those ancillary functions.
[00:05:39] Jess Bahr: So especially if you're at a smaller company where maybe you have to be in sales enablement until the company grows to hire a dedicated person.
[00:05:47] Jess Bahr: Having that experience, I feel like would make you much more well rounded in your ability to do product marketing and work with those other teams internally.
[00:05:55] Sander Buitelaar: Yeah, I think once you have, like, once you can say, I know how to do this really well, it gives you, I think, an edge over other candidates or other people that are applying for the role.
[00:06:09] Sander Buitelaar: Like, if you can say, I've done enablement, and I did it at Segment, I did it for a year, I helped train the global sales team.
[00:06:19] Sander Buitelaar: And you can point to what you did.
[00:06:21] Sander Buitelaar: I did this, I did that, and especially if they're looking for someone with enablement experience, that is a pretty good skill to have.
[00:06:32] Jess Bahr: I didn't really think about it until you mentioned it, but there are certain roles that I always advise early or in their career employees, like recent graduates to take.
[00:06:42] Jess Bahr: And it's usually like go be a BDR or go be a marketer.
[00:06:46] Jess Bahr: An early stage company have to do a million things or go get into some really great program at a large company where you learn how things should happen.
[00:06:55] Jess Bahr: But sales enablement does feel like one of those also entry points is even on my side, I focus predominantly on demand generation, revenue, marketing, enabling the field and making sure they're aware of campaigns are running, how to follow up with them.
[00:07:08] Jess Bahr: That's a huge component of success for those and something that doesn't get talked about quite as much in the marketing side as that enablement function.
[00:07:16] Sander Buitelaar: Yeah, I think sales enablement is a really interesting function or role that's very new.
[00:07:23] Sander Buitelaar: I don't think it existed, I don't know, five, six years ago.
[00:07:28] Sander Buitelaar: It's a very new kind of function.
[00:07:32] Sander Buitelaar: And I think if you want to break into marketing, if sellers if a salesperson wants to say, I'm done with sales, I want to break into marketing, sales enablement could be a potential path.
[00:07:46] Sander Buitelaar: Because you have to work so closely with the sales team, you're creating the assets that the sales team is using, or you're training the sales team.
[00:07:57] Sander Buitelaar: So knowing how sales works and I don't know, the different sales methodologies is really useful in that function or in that team.
[00:08:09] Sander Buitelaar: And then that can then translate into once you've done sales enablement and you're really good at sales enablement and maybe you want to do something other than sales enablement, which is kind of what I wanted to do.
[00:08:21] Sander Buitelaar: I didn't really just want to do sales enablement, I wanted to do product launches, do messaging, do positioning, which you don't quite do as a sales.
[00:08:30] Sander Buitelaar: If you're really in sales enablement, you can then transition into product marketing from that sales enablement position.
[00:08:37] Jess Bahr: Yeah, this is going to seem like a bit of an irrelevant quote, but I was watching Teen Mom too, like a decade ago on MTV and they went to a gypsy and she was like, do I go down this path or this path?
[00:08:53] Jess Bahr: And the woman, she's like, there is no right or wrong path, only the path that you choose.
[00:08:58] Jess Bahr: And I feel like that applies so much to growth in a marketing career because there's so many different routes to get to where you want to go.
[00:09:07] Jess Bahr: It's just about collecting those experiences and making them transferable in that next position.
[00:09:12] Sander Buitelaar: Yeah, I do think it's important having a goal like, I want to be this in two years or three years, I want to be in this role or in this type of company.
[00:09:26] Sander Buitelaar: But getting there, there's like multiple ways of doing that.
[00:09:29] Sander Buitelaar: And I think one thing that a previous manager once told me some advice, he was like, if you're learning at your job, that's a good thing.
[00:09:41] Sander Buitelaar: That's a really good thing.
[00:09:42] Sander Buitelaar: If you're learning, if you are being challenged and you're out of your comfort zone or you're like struggling a little bit, you know, that's a good a good experience.
[00:09:54] Sander Buitelaar: So I think yeah, you know, learning and also having, like, a goal, but there's there's definitely, you know, different ways of getting there.
[00:10:03] Jess Bahr: Yeah.
[00:10:03] Transitioning into Product Marketing: An Insightful Discussion with Sander Buitelaar
[00:10:03] Jess Bahr: So you're at Trey, you're doing some product marketing stuff, but not in a product marketing role yet, and then you go and you apply for your next role, and you start applying for product marketing roles.
[00:10:13] Jess Bahr: What was that experience like?
[00:10:14] Jess Bahr: Did you find a lot of people just rejected you off the bat for not having product marketing experience?
[00:10:19] Jess Bahr: Were more people?
[00:10:24] Jess Bahr: I imagine it wasn't an easy transition to change title with your next role.
[00:10:29] Sander Buitelaar: Yeah.
[00:10:29] Sander Buitelaar: So let me add a little bit of context, because I was at Trey for about three years, and I started out again as a coordinator, which is a very junior entry level role.
[00:10:43] Sander Buitelaar: But I was promoted to a marketing campaign manager after about one and a half years, and I made the transition to product marketing at Trey.
[00:10:55] Sander Buitelaar: So I had a little bit of a hybrid role.
[00:10:58] Sander Buitelaar: I had a hybrid role at Trey, and it's because I had a great manager and the people at the company were super supportive of me, wanting to kind of expand my skills and expand my area of focus.
[00:11:17] Sander Buitelaar: So I was honest and very direct with my manager, and I was like, hey, I want to be in product marketing.
[00:11:26] Sander Buitelaar: What can I do?
[00:11:28] Sander Buitelaar: How can I get there?
[00:11:30] Sander Buitelaar: I really enjoy doing what I'm doing in demand generation, and I'm happy, but I kind of want that next step in my career to be in product marketing.
[00:11:42] Sander Buitelaar: He was very supportive, and he kind of gave me the space to spend more time with the product marketing team.
[00:11:50] Sander Buitelaar: So at Trey, I was already kind of unofficially doing some things for the product marketing team.
[00:11:57] Sander Buitelaar: Again, sales enablement, but also competitive intelligence and really whatever they needed.
[00:12:03] Sander Buitelaar: Like, if they needed help with a presentation or a slide or they needed more customer stories, I would just go ahead and do it.
[00:12:12] Sander Buitelaar: And by that point, let's say I'm like, two years in at Trey.
[00:12:16] Sander Buitelaar: By that point, I already knew the product.
[00:12:19] Sander Buitelaar: I already knew the people.
[00:12:21] Sander Buitelaar: I kind of already knew the lay of the land.
[00:12:24] Sander Buitelaar: And so it was easy for me to just go ahead and start helping and start executing and start creating assets.
[00:12:33] Sander Buitelaar: I was meeting regularly with the product marketing team, and so that's where I made that transition.
[00:12:41] Sander Buitelaar: I say unofficially because my title didn't change.
[00:12:45] Sander Buitelaar: My title was still campaign manager or something, but I was already kind of like getting those skills that a product marketer has.
[00:12:54] Sander Buitelaar: And so I made the transition to product marketing.
[00:12:59] Sander Buitelaar: I was applying to some roles, but I was very not super active, but a company came along RudderStack and they basically recruited me because they saw that I had experience at segment sales enablement experience.
[00:13:12] Sander Buitelaar: And I had been doing some product marketing tasks at Trade IO.
[00:13:19] Sander Buitelaar: So that's when that official move happened.
[00:13:22] Jess Bahr: Yeah.
[00:13:22] Jess Bahr: Okay.
[00:13:23] Jess Bahr: I feel like that's the number one way to get hired these days is to get poached.
[00:13:29] Sander Buitelaar: Yeah, well, I mean, at that point, this was in 2021.
[00:13:35] Sander Buitelaar: The market was very different back then.
[00:13:39] Sander Buitelaar: So a lot of things have changed, very much so.
[00:13:42] Jess Bahr: For others who are thinking about wanting to get into product marketing and they're another ancillary marketing function, it sounds like the best step to take.
[00:13:50] Jess Bahr: Maybe not the best step, but a good step.
[00:13:55] Jess Bahr: But a good step to take is to talk to your manager and try and just get more work that aligns with product marketing that's closer to the product marketing team so you have that relevant experience to eventually make that transition.
[00:14:08] Sander Buitelaar: Yeah.
[00:14:08] Sander Buitelaar: I would say having a supportive team or a supportive manager is invaluable.
[00:14:15] Sander Buitelaar: And I think if you really have someone that will vouch for you, they will give you the space, they will give you that opportunity so you can make that transition.
[00:14:26] Sander Buitelaar: And in order to do that, if you don't have a great manager, then it's going to be a lot harder.
[00:14:33] Sander Buitelaar: But that doesn't mean you can't do that.
[00:14:35] Sander Buitelaar: I think the point is you need to build relationships and you want to build those relationships.
[00:14:41] Sander Buitelaar: It's usually easier to build those relationships once you're at a company so you can reach out to your manager.
[00:14:49] Sander Buitelaar: Someone in the product marketing team, I don't know, the VP of marketing or the head of marketing or maybe even like the founder, depending on how big the company is and how close people are to each other.
[00:15:03] Sander Buitelaar: You can start building those relationships once you're at a company and slowly see how you can help out the product marketing team or see what they need or try to fill in those gaps.
[00:15:16] Sander Buitelaar: And it's usually, I think for me it's easier or it seems to be easier at a startup just because there's so much work to be done, there's always going to be something that needs to be done.
[00:15:31] Sander Buitelaar: So if you're saying like, hey, I can help with this, like with one small thing in this bigger project, I can do this presentation or do some research, I think that's going to be well received.
[00:15:46] Sander Buitelaar: And as long as you can do a good job and provide that on time and be reliable and all that, you're going to have a better time making that transition.
[00:15:57] Jess Bahr: Yeah.
[00:15:57] Jess Bahr: Those earlier stage companies, all the formalities between roles are out the window with a lot of it.
[00:16:07] Sander Buitelaar: Yeah.
[00:16:09] Sander Buitelaar: Now that everything's remote.
[00:16:11] Sander Buitelaar: It's a little maybe a little bit harder, perhaps, but it's just being approachable, communicating well and building relationships.
[00:16:20] Jess Bahr: Yeah, that's the takeaway of career growth in general.
[00:16:25] Jess Bahr: And good managers, if you go to your manager and say, hey, I'm doing demand gen, but I really want to do product marketing, a good manager is going to help get you there.
[00:16:35] Jess Bahr: They're going to recognize like, none of us are going to retire from a company that we're at, especially not working in B, two B SaaS tech.
[00:16:41] Jess Bahr: None of us are going to and so how do we really set our employees up for long term success in them to where they want to go career wise?
[00:16:49] Jess Bahr: A good manager will work with you on it.
[00:16:51] Jess Bahr: If you go to your manager and say, hey, I really like product marketing, I'm super interested, and all they do is try and discourage you from it and keep you in your current role, that's not a good manager.
[00:17:01] Jess Bahr: It's not someone that's invested in your growth.
[00:17:03] Sander Buitelaar: That's a red flag.
[00:17:05] Sander Buitelaar: And if I could offer advice, it would be to look for either a new job or maybe not a new job, but see if they can switch to a different team.
[00:17:15] Sander Buitelaar: Because really, I think the times when I think back of where I really learned and where I grew a lot as a marketer, it's with a manager that's very supportive and is pushing you and motivating you.
[00:17:32] Sander Buitelaar: And the bad manager is just like is so detrimental, I think, to your own career health.
[00:17:40] Jess Bahr: Yeah, 100% agree.
[00:17:43] Tech Stack Insights from Sander Buitelaar, an expert in tech and marketing
[00:17:43] Jess Bahr: So coming towards the end, question for you.
[00:17:46] Jess Bahr: What is your favorite part of your tech stack, or least favorite, if you do want to bash someone?
[00:17:55] Sander Buitelaar: My favorite part of the tech stack as a marketer.
[00:18:01] Sander Buitelaar: I found some of the tools or some of the yeah, I guess tools that that we use that are that are really that move the needle or that are really impactful are like in product message applications like Appqs or Chameleon or I don't know.
[00:18:24] Sander Buitelaar: There's probably a lot more, but those are the ones that I know off the top of my head.
[00:18:29] Sander Buitelaar: And when I was at Zendesk, when I was doing field marketing, if we had an event that we were advertising this event and we needed people to register for the event, like, those messages, those in App messages were so great, like the conversion rates from that simple message, because it makes sense.
[00:18:53] Sander Buitelaar: People are already in the product, they're using the product.
[00:18:57] Sander Buitelaar: They probably care about attending an event where there's going to be swag, it's going to be a nice event, especially at Zendesk, big public company.
[00:19:08] Sander Buitelaar: So I think those tools where you can have a message in the product itself, as long as it's short to the point and it all makes sense, can be super useful to your campaigns.
[00:19:24] Sander Buitelaar: I think as a marketer with my marketing hat on, I would say that's maybe one of the best tools in the tech stack.
[00:19:32] Jess Bahr: Yeah, I love that.
[00:19:33] Jess Bahr: As a marketer, I've always wanted to do more in app push notifications, and it's always product be like, no.
[00:19:40] Jess Bahr: Yeah.
[00:19:42] Sander Buitelaar: That's the challenge.
[00:19:43] Sander Buitelaar: The product team owns that, right.
[00:19:45] Sander Buitelaar: So they don't want to really annoy people with too many marketing messages.
[00:19:51] Jess Bahr: They have their MPs survey.
[00:19:55] Jess Bahr: Awesome.
[00:19:55] Jess Bahr: Well, Sander, thank you so much for joining us today.
[00:19:58] Jess Bahr: If you're interested in anything that we talked about during this episode, we'll have everything in the show notes below.
[00:20:03] Jess Bahr: You can connect with both of us on LinkedIn other platforms, and we'll see you guys on the next episode.